To SAC Seattle re Tacoma witness letter to Senator Jackson alleging CIA pilot as hijacker
This copy: Part 104 pp. 139–142Also filed at Part 19 pp. 81–84 (primary)
This copy’s own title
SAC Seattle re interview of witness describing suspicious 727 passenger
Document date 30 December 1971
Another copy of this document is the primary, most legible copy: Part 19 pp. 81–84.
Copies may differ in what was redacted.
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Id: Cooper-Part-104:139-142
Subject: Cooper Files: Cooper-Part-104:139-142 Document: Memo SAC Seattle re interview of witness describing suspicious 727 passenger Id: Cooper-Part-104:139-142 Page: https://cooper.theunsolved.net/documents/Cooper-Part-104%3A139-142 What is wrong (title, date, type, which pages belong together, copies)? What does the scan show?
A person reads every report. Corrections are made by hand, to the data — titles, dates, names, which pages belong together — never to the scans, and they can take a while to appear.
FBI 164-81, Vault Part 104 pp. 139–142 (DB Cooper-47098–47101), Memo, dated 30 Dec 1971, serial SE 164-81-12440 (as read from the transcript) — cooper.theunsolved.net/documents/Cooper-Part-104%3A139-142
SAC, SEATTLE (164-81)(P) 12/30/71
SA [REDACTED]
NORJAK
Re [REDACTED]
[REDACTED] was contacted at his home, [REDACTED] Washington, on December 27, 1971. [REDACTED] stated basically the same information as pro- vided in his letter to U.S. Senator HENRY M. JACKSON. This information is in essence as follows:
[REDACTED] got on Northwest Orient Flight #45, Minneapolis to Seattle, on Monday, September 13, 1971. A person got on the plane at Billings, Montana, approximately 8:00 a.m. This person is hereafter referred to by [REDACTED] as "the pilot." The pilot got off the plane to stretch at Great Falls and upon returning to his seat for the flight to Missoula, Montana, [REDACTED] and the pilot struck up a conversation. While flying over the Great Falls area, [REDACTED] asked the pilot if he knew the identity of any of the buildings below them. The pilot identified many of the buildings, indicating that he had flown over the area many times in the past. In addition the pilot told [REDACTED] the requirements for landing an aircraft at a field such as that required in Great Falls, Montana. Through conversation it was obvious to [REDACTED] that the pilot was familiar with both Missoula and Great Falls airports. [REDACTED] then asked about the aircraft which was a 727 and asked the pilot if there was a built-in skid that hit the ground every time on the take-off which produced a characteristic noise. The pilot then responded, no, that the noise heard was the landing wheels being brought up at the exact moment when the pilot begins his climb. This led to a discussion of the 727 aircraft. 164-81-12440
[REDACTED] asked if the pilot had ever flown a 727 at which time the pilot stated that he had piloted a 727 and had made "numerous low-level flights for the military dropping personnel and supplies in places that were other- wise inaccessible." [REDACTED] asked the pilot if he had ever
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DB COOPER-47098
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SE 164-81
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jumped from a 727 at which time the pilot said "In training, we all had to jump. It was a hell of a thrill." [REDACTED] then said one word "Thailand?" at which time the pilot responded "something like that" (indicating no). The pilot further stated that he hadn't been able to get a job flying 727 aircraft as a civilian due to his lack of flying hours. [REDACTED] emphasized the point that the pilot continually used the word personnel rather than soldiers and it was noted that it was not certain whether the pilot was flying for the military or possibly the CIA. At this point, [REDACTED] dropped the questioning.
The pilot got off the plane to stretch at Missoula, Montana. While the pilot was off the plane another man took his seat, at which time the pilot went to the forward cabin upon returning to the aircraft. The aircraft made an unscheduled stop at someplace which [REDACTED] believes to be Sandpoint, Idaho. The pilot got off the plane at this un- scheduled stop as well and exited the aircraft in his shirt- sleeves. When the pilot came back aboard the aircraft he entered with four men who were all dressed identically. It is believed by [REDACTED] that these men were either para- troopers or smoke jumpers, both of which it was learned by [REDACTED] have camps within a radius of 30 miles of Sandpoint, Idaho. When these four men came aboard, one woman seated on the aircraft reacted by screaming. Another man yelled "What the hell is going on." "A bunch of motorcycle hoodlums?" [REDACTED] stated that one of the individuals mumbled something like "We're paratroopers" but the wording at this point was incoherent. Whatever was said satisfied the man and woman who both apologized. The pilot took two of these men forward and said that he could arrange for two of them to sit up front with him (the pilot). The other two men sat in the rear of the plane. One of the individuals who went forward with the pilot, it is felt like [REDACTED] looked a great deal like the artist's conception of the hijacker. The man who could have been the hijacker was described by [REDACTED] as follows:
Height: 6' 1" to 6' 2" Build: Thin Facial features: Narrow Hair: Covered by cap Weight: Unable to determine Wearing Apparel: Black coat made of a shiny material, leather or plastic; sunglasses with extremely wide frames, narrowing toward the ear
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Coat - had a high sloping collar, completely covering the neck. The coat went down to the man's knees, indicating that it was not at all full and the person was not very heavy in weight
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[REDACTED] stated that he could not hazard a guess as to the person's age as he was able to see very little of the person who could have been the hijacker. The voice was described as being very low, and very smooth. The pilot was described by [REDACTED] as follows:
Height: Approximately 5' 10" Weight: 170 pounds, Build: Trim in appearance Face: Solid face, round, with round cheekbones and a round chin, full lips, no strain lines anywhere on the face, face Germanic or Slavic in origin Age: Approximately 30 Hair: Dark in color with a heavy head of hair which covered half of his forehead, sideburns, average Dress: Gray slacks with a gray coat that did not match, Characteristics: Self-confident
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It is [REDACTED] contention that the hijacker "is a person who had jumped at some time with technical construction and/or aid in navigation, speed of plane, setting of wings, and use of explosives. Someone who had flown that kind of plane before may have accidentally or purposely passed this information on to the hijacker. It was obvious that it had to have been planned by someone who knew navigation." [REDACTED] feels that the pilot may easily have been a pilot for the Central Intelligence Agency. [REDACTED] feels this is the case because he stated that [REDACTED]
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[REDACTED] If the pilot had been a former pilot for the CIA dropping men and supplies in Southeastern Asia, then the pilot could have easily passed this information on to one of
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DB COOPER-47100
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the smoke jumpers who boarded the plane at Sandpoint, Idaho. The pilot and the man that looked like the hijacker both sat in the forward cabin and it is quite possible that the pilot discussed the operations of the 727 aircraft and the requirements for jumping from same, while seated with the two smoke jumpers.
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[REDACTED] stated that he wrote to Senator JACKSON because he felt that the hijacker would never be identified until information was obtained from the CIA. [REDACTED] stated that if the FBI were to locate and identify the pilot, then the CIA would have to identify this man as having been a pilot for the CIA and admit that they have been dropping personnel in Southeastern Asia. [REDACTED] stated that this could have serious political implications when it is learned by the Chinese and could ruin the upcoming visit by President NIXON to China. [REDACTED] stated that as a result of the hijacking we were to uncover this activity by the CIA, this could be the biggest blunder since the U2 incident. It is for this reason that [REDACTED] feels we will never get to the bottom of the hijacking and solve it until possibly after the proposed conference by President NIXON in Mainland China.
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At one point during the interview, [REDACTED] made reference to past activity in writing for Communist news- papers. [REDACTED] claimed that he at one point wrote a report which had been used by the Intelligence Division and which had been hand-delivered by the Governor of the State of Washington to then President HARRY TRUMAN. Seattle indices reflect numerous references in security investigations, for [REDACTED] It is recommended that these indices references be thoroughly reviewed before a reply is prepared as requested by Senator JACKSON.
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DB COOPER-47101
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Serials: SE 164-81, SE 164-81-12440